ADVANCING TIMING?

[cephus]

Should i do it and how can i do it?

[Sokool]

Yes. Slide the crank angle sensor down.

[2k8mazda6]

what does it do for the car? explain por favor

[Sokool]

Effectively raises cylinder head pressures, thus making more power. Problem is some report knock and have had to resort to high octain fuel.

Mine is advanced as much as the stock sensor allows and I can feel the car pull timing on a warm day running 87. Running 89 seems to alleviate the problem. But with out a scan tool I can't be sure.

[cephus]

where might i find the crank angle sensor?

[cephus]

is it easy to see basically and what does it look like

[Sokool]

Passenger fender well. Little moon shaped sensor behind the ac belt. Not sure I have a picture.

[Broken]

You know, me and another fellar here dynoed the cars this weekend. Same mods, same car (mazda3 hatch), he had the advanced timming. We produced the same power, he produced 4lbs more of tq.(in theory I produced more hp, .58 to be precise...)

IMO, I do not see any effectiveness on advancing our timmings besides a small tq gain.

And it does not change the preassure in the head. The engine has a volumetric limit, which is the ammount of preassure that will produce always (unless some sort of F/I is introduce). What retarding/advancing your timming does is allow more time (retarding) A/F mix to blend and heat itself up, effectively creating a more efficient ignition and, hence, a slight increase in HP.

However, this was not shown at the dyno this weekend. If anything, there was a minimal loss (he had a second cat delete and the throttle body bypass, which I thought were pretty insignificant mods, regarding hp production). My theory is that, being that our cars are very rich in their fuel mix, advancing our timming only gives the fuel less time to mix with the air. We are counterproducing the hp gain, but at a low RPM (where tq is produced) the engine gets a bigger boost from it. Hence the gain in tq but not in hp. I would like to see the bhp/lbs-tq difference between advanced and retarded timming however, to see which one helps most (pending on gains).

Discuss.

[cephus]

well ive seen a car with every bolt on not make as much hp as one that was stock thats also why beside most mazda hp ratings have a gap like the 2.3 mazda 3 hp rating is 150-158hp

[mach1steve]

why the **** would you screw with your timing on a basically stock vehicle??? especially if all you're going to do is change it by moving the location of the sensor...

i hope that each and every one of you knows that if you do that wrong, you can, and probably will, pop the motor...

head pressures WILL go up...

also, what happens when you finally go to advance the timing CORRECTLY and you forget to move the sensor back and you end up somewhere around 26-27 degrees timing? POP!

[cephus]

mine isnt stock

[2k8mazda6]

haha i was fixing to say that.

[mach1steve]

what major mods do you have that would make timing matter?

nitrous? turbo? supercharger? 10+:1 compression?

[mach1steve]

And it does not change the preassure in the head. The engine has a volumetric limit, which is the ammount of preassure that will produce always (unless some sort of F/I is introduce). What retarding/advancing your timming does is allow more time (retarding) A/F mix to blend and heat itself up, effectively creating a more efficient ignition and, hence, a slight increase in HP.

cylinder head pressure WILL go up...

normal
ignition flame front pressure -----> X <----- piston coming up

advanced
ignition flame front pressure ------------> X <--- piston coming up

as the advanced timing piston pressure reaches TDC it is FAR higher than it should have been and in extreme scenarios can shoot the head right off the block...

[cephus]

not all cars have to be boosted to have advanced timing

[mach1steve]

not all cars have to be boosted to have advanced timing

no they don't, but they sure as hell have a **** TON of mods...

what do you have that would warrant advanced timing? you have a non-turbo 3 with an intake and exhaust from what i can tell... the last thing you EVER **** with is timing...

FUEL (base fuel table tuning, injector pulse width, better hardware, etc)

AIR (maf tuning, better manifold, etc)

SPARK (timing, coil output, spark plug gap, etc)

[cephus]

maybe i have more stuff than that in case you didnt see the and more part on the sig. plus must not hurt the car when the car has a limiter on it anyways. Plus SoKool whom has a 3 has done it isnt having problems plus i can always put it back

[mach1steve]

maybe i have more stuff than that in case you didnt see the and more part on the sig. plus must not hurt the car when the car has a limiter on it anyways. Plus SoKool whom has a 3 has done it isnt having problems plus i can always put it back

can you "put back" a cylinder head that pops off of the motor?

can you "put back" the pistons you'll melt, if not crack, from this?

and you still have yet to say what all of these "performance" mods you have are that require timing changes...

and if you read, SoKool isn't completely sure what his knock rating is, and he's looking for a scan tool for that...

do you have a scan tool? oh wait, you're the great Cephus, you can just mod a car without knowing anything... alright, you got me, go ahead and **** with your CRANK SENSOR! what would i know, it's not like i'm going to automotive schooling or anything, and it's not like my last class was ALL about street legal tuning such as our little friend TIMING!!!

you're right... go ahead....

[cephus]

no but you are being a dick which is awesome. and congrats on not knowing that my father in law owns a shop and sounding like an A S S but the reason why i dont list everything is cause i dont want everyone to know what all i have done or am currently doin to my car. but either way i wasnt bein a smart a s s i was just asking a question. by the way everyone im putting a power pulley kit in my car and tryin to get a dry nitrous kit set up seein as in how everyone should know why i want to advance my timing

[Sokool]

At least someone around here knows what they are talking about. If I recall correctly from my research before I did the mod the stock sensor has 6 degrees of play. This is needed because the crank pulley isn't keyed and can be off by a few degrees in relation to the cams when you finally get everything snug. I've seen them come from the factory all the way one way to the other. Mine happed to be pretty close to dead middle. So I marked it and moved it the estimated 3 degrees advanced.

[mach1steve]

well, if your father-in-law owns a shop, he'd know how ****ing retarded it is to **** with something that is required for the car to run and could potentially pop the motor...

no offense SoKool, but i'm not sure why you'd want to endanger your motor in such a way... that's about as safe as running a manual boost controller...

[cephus]

wait who are you sayin knows what theyre talkin about? lol

[mach1steve]

At least someone around here knows what they are talking about. If I recall correctly from my research before I did the mod the stock sensor has 6 degrees of play. This is needed because the crank pulley isn't keyed and can be off by a few degrees in relation to the cams when you finally get everything snug. I've seen them come from the factory all the way one way to the other. Mine happed to be pretty close to dead middle. So I marked it and moved it the estimated 3 degrees advanced.

you saying i don't know what i'm talking about?

i'm not saying it wouldn't work or anything, i'm just saying that first of all, it's really not necessary till you're making big power, and second that if you're going to do it, that this is an EXTREMELY dangerous way of doing it...

[cephus]

in case you didnt read it properly im goin to do it for the nitrous setup i am planning on getting

[mach1steve]

in case you didnt read it properly im goin to do it for the nitrous setup i am planning on getting

yes, i get that, and i completely understand changing timing for nitrous, BUT i'm saying that this is a horribly dangerous way of doing it...

[Sokool]

I was stating Steve knew what he was talking about.

And what other way would you like me to advance the timing? This is the way you set base timing on this motor. Manufactures go conservative with timing maps because they have to have some wiggle room for the guy who has watered down gas with 5 people in the car going up a hill. I'm just taking up that wiggle room and urking out some power in the process. The only reason I think I'm feeling timing being pulled is all this "may contain 10% ethanol" **** we have now. I've been running it this way for well over a year with no foreseeable ill effects.

[mach1steve]

I was stating Steve knew what he was talking about.

And what other way would you like me to advance the timing? This is the way you set base timing on this motor. Manufactures go conservative with timing maps because they have to have some wiggle room for the guy who has watered down gas with 5 people in the car going up a hill. I'm just taking up that wiggle room and urking out some power in the process. The only reason I think I'm feeling timing being pulled is all this "may contain 10% ethanol" **** we have now. I've been running it this way for well over a year with no foreseeable ill effects.

what way should you advance the timing?

the smart way, let the computer do it with a tune... that way, you leave the crank sensor where it was supposed to be, yes, i do realize that there is "wiggle room" available, but that's not the smartest/safest way to do it...

oh, and thank you for stating that i know what i'm talking about... i try damn hard in school so that i can learn stuff like this..

[Sokool]

This is no different then clocking a distributer a couple ticks.

[mach1steve]

This is no different then clocking a distributer a couple ticks.

yes and no... as you said, the crank and cams can get out of time with each other, and that's why there's the "wiggle room"... not so that you can tune your car...

as you said, you've been running it for a while with no issues, so i guess you got away with it... i'm just saying that if it were me, i'd get the computer tuned so as to know EXACTLY where the timing is...

[Sokool]

Show me where I can "tune" my computer and I'll do that. There is hardly an aftermarket for these cars let alone a reflash solution.

[cephus]

SoKool is there anything around it that will help me find it?

[Sokool]

Only thing down there besides the compressor with wires going to it.

[cephus]

ok im goin to look so i know where

[Sokool]

Found this pic

http://www.mazda3forums.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11726/sensor.jpg

[cephus]

which direction am i rotating it

[Sokool]

Down = advanced

[cephus]

ok apparently im not seein it im dumb i guess lol

[Sokool]

You have to pull out the liner to see it.

[cephus]

oh ok i was tryin to find it from the top lol

[Broken]

Steve, IMO its not changing the preassure. Its changing the time of the ignition (duh), which in hand changes the moment in where the surge from the explosion moves the piston down. The piston will create the same ammount of preassure regardless of the timming, is just the position of the piston that would be (in the case of an advanced timming) upward instead of neutral or moving down (away from the explosion?). The preasure created will be the same in the piston still (what is the compression ratio on 3's, 8.something:1?). If anything advancing the timming is lowering the compression, because your igniting the mix earlier, not later (more time for the piston to travel up)...

IMO, after what I saw this wekend (and I was lookign foward to see this mod) its completely unecesary and a risk I personally am not willing to take for a few more lbs-tq (observations).

Cephus, what Steve meant (on a lighter tone) is that, unless your seriously tunning the hell out of your car...and let's be honest here, you are not, you have the exact sasme mods I have, it is a risky mod that should be done under certain supervision/tunning tools. Whenever you get the nitrous, however, I can see why retarding/advancing the timming would help...

[Broken]

as the advanced timing piston pressure reaches TDC it is FAR higher than it should have been and in extreme scenarios can shoot the head right off the block...


kynetic preassure blows the head out of the block, not higher preassure ratios (the later are a great help, and can indeed make a head [shizzle] a brick, but not in this scenario)

Piston moving upward ^
Combustion created by advanced timing goes in every direction (as all explosion do), mostly up adn down on a cylindrical chamber ^v
Piston still goin up encounters v force, which causes it to stop its ^ energy in an instant. But energy can only be transfered, not dsestroyed. Hence, there is some upward energy still pusing on the explosion, which adds to the ^ energy from the explosion.
Piston goes to hell (see: Marks thread about boom). Upward kynetic energy from both piston's compression stroke and combustion push head upward. head goes to hell as well.

That is, at least, my idea of how it happens. I've never been to mech school, but Ive blown, repaired, and boosted a few cars in my few years to kinda understand the process...

[bluestreak6]

moving the crank sensor either up or down gives/takes 6 degrees. mine is also advanced like every other 6 owner and we have no problems. yea i lost 1hp but gained 4lb ft tq which is more important to me so.............

[mach1steve]

kynetic preassure blows the head out of the block, not higher preassure ratios (the later are a great help, and can indeed make a head [shizzle] a brick, but not in this scenario)

Piston moving upward ^
Combustion created by advanced timing goes in every direction (as all explosion do), mostly up adn down on a cylindrical chamber ^v
Piston still goin up encounters v force, which causes it to stop its ^ energy in an instant. But energy can only be transfered, not dsestroyed. Hence, there is some upward energy still pusing on the explosion, which adds to the ^ energy from the explosion.
Piston goes to hell (see: Marks thread about boom). Upward kynetic energy from both piston's compression stroke and combustion push head upward. head goes to hell as well.

That is, at least, my idea of how it happens. I've never been to mech school, but Ive blown, repaired, and boosted a few cars in my few years to kinda understand the process...

think about it though dude, with advanced timing, you're trying to compress an expanding gas... god save your pistons...

that's why, to prevent blowing **** up, i can't imagine why cephus would want to ADVANCE his timing with nitrous... intelligent fellows just might wanna retard it for nitrous... but then again, what do i know...

also, cephus, what kind of plugs are you using? certain plugs make nitrous ignite even before the intake valve is closed so i'd hope you're not using those...

[Broken]

I agree with you, advancing the timming is not necesarily the best of ideas. Retarding it does seem like it would produce a bigger gain.

Again, I would like to see the differences in a dyno.

[mach1steve]

I agree with you, advancing the timming is not necesarily the best of ideas. Retarding it does seem like it would produce a bigger gain.

Again, I would like to see the differences in a dyno.

advancing timing is only good to a certain degree and works better when there's no power adders...

now retarding the timing... that can yeild some BIG gains because think about it, the piston's already going down... why not have an explosion to push the ****er even harder... that being said... the timing can be advanced as far as the computer is concerned and still not ignite the mix till atdc and that's where dyno tuning is REQUIRED...

[Broken]

I can see how advancing the timming would help on a lean AFR, perhaps to save gas. Other than that, you speak the truth sir.

[mach1steve]

I can see how advancing the timming would help on a lean AFR, perhaps to save gas. Other than that, you speak the truth sir.

you are completely correct as the lean mix takes longer to burn since there's more air space for the flame to jump before it hits another fuel molecule...

[1mpg]

I'd like to let you all know, that this advnaced timing "mod" only advances your timing less than 2 degrees. It's not meant to add any power or do anything to make HP/tq gains. The only reason most people do it for, is to make the car run a little smoother, which mine has done because of it. A certain few of you here (not throwing names out) need to chill out and stop cussing in every post over something so minute. < 2 degrees.... woo hoo. Honestly it's up to you if you want to do it, I run 89 octane in my car since i've done it and I've noticed since I've done the timing and 89 octance that my car runs smoother and I get better gas mileage now. So say what you will about "I know more than you, and you know nothing," some of us need to chill out around here with dropping F bombs and stuff and trying to tell other people with different cars what they should and shouldn't do to their car. Let the guys that actually own the car we're referring to be the deciding factor of whether or not to do something.

P.S. Josh is right, my dyno and his dyno were almost identical minus 4lbs/tq which could've been from my cat delete. Needless to say, don't do it for power, cause that's not what it's for.

[1mpg]

Oh BTW this is NOT 1mpg. This is z00mz00m3 making the last post along with this one.